All these journalism courses must mean a higher standard of writing … right?
In the past decade or so there has been a proliferation of journalism courses. They are everywhere, ubiquitous, viral. As noted some time ago, the Irish Academy of Public Relations started one, meaning that the alien had finally burst from the chest of journalism.
But here’s the thing: with so many graduates being pumped out of so many courses, has the standard of journalism improved? Are there better writers in Irish newspapers or magazines? Are the unqualified dinosaurs being put to shame by these hordes of Woodward and Bernsteins?
For those interested in broadcast journalism, a course must be of some use in grappling with the technical demands and perhaps learning how to be comfortable on air. Although, here too the standard doesn’t seem to have improved noticeably. There are still too many moments when you turn on RTÉ radio or television and wonder if a transition-year student has been accidentally given a chief reporter’s job.
Courses are helpful for an introduction to the law, to shorthand, to subbing, to deciding what end of the business a person wants to go into. And they definitely helpful in getting a foot in the door for those looking for sub-editing shifts in newspapers, or researcher jobs on radio or television, although experience quickly becomes an asset that outweighs the qualification.
But, in my experience, good journalists are often the ones who have had a different life other journalism, who bring something unconventional to their writing, who learned their trade on the job, and by reading (and learning from) a lot of others writers.
I’m not saying that talented journalists don’t come out of the colleges, but I’d be willing to bet that they were talented when they first went in. When students come into the office on work experience, you can almost always spot the smart ones immediately, and they always have qualities which they clearly didn’t learn in a lecture hall.
Decent news reporters tend to have an intuition for a story and a strong work ethic. All good writers - news and features - have an innate skill with the language. They know how to inject personality in their writing; to act as a prism for a story; to entertain and inform. Can you really teach all of this? I don’t know. But I haven’t seen it yet.
What do you think about the journalism conversion courses? Like the one DIT does for graduates that have a degree in something different.
They offer a Masters in Journalism, do you reckon it’s worth the €5000?
Comment by Sinéad C | March 19, 2008 at 10:57 amShane, of greater urgency than the debate over whether “good” writing/reporting can be learned is whether the basic skills of writing/reporting are being taught in these journalism courses. In DCU, for example, the four-year undergrad course has only one semester during which shorthand is thought, and even then it is only for a couple of hours a week and the teacher - in my time, at least - was awful. So, of my entire year of say 25, only two/three came out of a respected journalism degree with shorthand. The subbing course wasn’t much better, using an antiquated system I hadn’t seen before nor haven’t encountered since in the papers I have worked in.
What I got out of it was a decent semester/holiday abroad, a basic knowledge of libel law and excellent typing skills. I understand that typing is no longer being taught.
Comment by Jason | March 19, 2008 at 10:58 amShane, you were always going to be a hostage to fortune with this one but perhaps you should have proofed your post before you posted it.
On a cursory glance - “inate” “noticeably” and there should only be three dots in an ellipsis.
Comment by Ivor | March 19, 2008 at 11:07 amSinead C - I can’t comment, as I don’t know what the course teaches.
Justin - Again, I only see what comes out the other end. I never studied journalism (you might be able to tell that already) so I have little idea of the day-to-day workings of the courses, only their outcomes.
Ivor - Absolutely, and that’s why writers have subs. And that’s why this blog often needs a sub, although readers often do the job for me. By the way, I’m not suggesting that I am an example of a great journalist. I’m a lousy speller, as you can tell. But when I see colleges producing graduates who are as lousy as I am, I wonder what the point is.
Comment by Shane | March 19, 2008 at 11:33 amSinead, that Masters course is a waste of time but unfortunately, it seems to be the only way to get a foot in the door. Journalism is rough no matter how talented you are, unless you know someone in your newspaper of choice. I’d suggest accountancy or something which provides you with a decent living and regular hours. I’m not joking.
Comment by Macey | March 19, 2008 at 12:26 pmMacey - You’ve hit on something regarding the difficulties of journalism. I always tell young people interested in journalism to prepare for a freelance career, as that is the trend now. A good living, though, can be made out of this if you are hardworking, talented and trustworthy. However, I don’t think that you need to know someone in a newspaper, but you do need to make sure you know the correct person to contact. There’s nothing worse than someone getting in touch, who doesn’t know who they’re looking for, the name of the commissioning editor or their role. That’s easy information to get.
Comment by Shane | March 19, 2008 at 12:33 pmi think what you’ve said applies to a lot of professions, Shane. not microsurgery or aeronautical engineering, obviously, but others involving creativity and cop-on, where wider focus and broader experience are huge advantages.
Comment by Rosie | March 19, 2008 at 12:39 pm[didn’t mean to imply that surgeons and engineers aren’t creative or copped on… apologies, the above comment was badly phrased but you get the gist, i’m sure]
Comment by Rosie | March 19, 2008 at 12:40 pmOf course you think freelancing is the way to go Shane, have you tried it lately? A nightmare! Self-important editors who can’t be arsed getting back to you half the time etc etc. Next to impossible to make a decent living. No, the advice I would give (and which was given to me but which I chose to ignore) is don’t touch journalism unless there’s a staff job with your name on it somewhere (ie someone well disposed toward you who’s in a position to look after you in your organisation of choice). If you are intelligent and talented, almost any other career will provide a better return on your investment - ie you won’t have to become a humble-pie eating sycophant just to survive!
Comment by Macey | March 19, 2008 at 12:46 pmMacey - I never said it was the way to go, only that it should be expected. There are increasingly few places offering staff jobs and new journalists need to realise that.
Comment by Shane | March 19, 2008 at 12:48 pmFirstly on shorthand - it seems to be near non-existent in Irish journalism now. The HND course I did in Coláiste Dhúlaigh didn’t require it and nor did the “Journalism and Editorial Design” degree course I did in England - although the latter is probably because that was 9 parts design and 1 part journalism.
On freelancing, Macey is largely right in saying that it’s a tough gig, at least I find it is, but I was always prepared for some tough times starting out and no-one else going into journalism should expect otherwise.
I have to say, if everyone took the advice you give (on not entering journalism unless you had a job waiting for you) our media would be in a far worse position than it is now.
In my unscientific opinion, the best journalists out there are the ones who worked their way to the top through sheer raw talent - these are the very ones that wouldn’t have bothered at all if they paid any heed to the advice you were given.
My advice - as someone who’s really only at the start of his career (I hope, anyway) is:
If you know people in the media who can help you get your foot in the door don’t be ashamed to use it - just don’t sit back and relax once you’re there.
If you don’t, just be prepared for a tough, long haul.
Be prepared for the frustration you’ll feel with a lack of work, a lack of motivation, a lack of response from editors, a lack of money in your pocket and the nagging impression that you’re not advancing as fast as you’d like.
Be prepared to write about anything and do a good job of it no matter how boring the topic is. Be prepared to take anything you’re given early on but also be prepared to turn something down if you have genuine misgivings about it. Be prepared to make full use of your time and be prepared to bombard editors with ideas and CVs until something finally sticks.
To be honest, a few of these things I still haven’t gotten good at - namely managing my time well and motivating myself enough. But you just keep plugging away.
Comment by Adam | March 19, 2008 at 2:20 pmSo what brought all this on, then, eh? Been getting a few CVs on your desk with heinous typos and apostrophes littered all over the page?
Comment by Markham | March 19, 2008 at 2:24 pmThe innate/taught journo question is certainly a toughie, though. I started writing and snapping for mags aged 17 (it beat bar work), was subbing others’ work a year later, and earned my beer money through college by writing. At that stage, I was self-taught and getting good feedback for my writing. But I still did the MA in DIT just to get a stamp in my passport. As Macey said, it gets your foot in the door, and as a writer, it adds to your skill set. The layout skills I learned in DIT and promptly shelved for two years got me my last job - deputy editor in a small paper in Australia, and the subbing lessons were handy. Shorthand? Wish it had been taught better, but it was a sham. None of us learnt it, something I now regret. But it was an eye-opener and worthwhile.
What an MA won’t do, however, is turn a terrible writer into Salman Rushdie. There was no straight-up writing course involved. The ability to construct a sentence was something you were expected to bring to the table as a pre-requisite. Plenty of my class are now working across national titles and in major roles on national radio, and turning out quality stuff, too.
I did the DCU journalism MA ten years ago and learned pretty much nothing. I did, however, get a placement at the end of it which led to a staff job at the same national broadsheet newspaper and ended up staying there for five years. That was the sole point of doing the course, as far as I could see. I really didn’t enjoy the whole year and, like the others above, wish we’d been taught shorthand - the one practical thing they could have shown us. I probably learned more writing for Trinity News as an undergrad than I learned during my MA.
I did write a thesis about crazy ’60s underground magazines, though. Which was fun.
Comment by Stellanova | March 19, 2008 at 4:26 pmNothing beats learning on the job. I did an MA in Journalism and it gave a good grounding, but that’s all you can ever expect from them I think. Experience trumps all
Comment by Declan | March 19, 2008 at 4:31 pmAlso, I don’t think it’s possible to teach good writing, but I think it’s possible to steer people away from the mistakes made by novice writers – usually overwriting. Now I’m on the editorial side I get a fair few submissions from people trying to start a journalistic career and too many people seem to think that being a “good writer” means being as formal and, frankly, as pompous as possible.
Comment by Stellanova | March 19, 2008 at 4:37 pmI studied 4 years in DCU and I felt the value was not in learning subbing, typing, shorthand etc but in the attention to providing an open education. The course provided a great introduction to sociology, law, history of science/philosophy, political economy, semiotics etc. It’s great to bang on about the practical skills but without an intellectual underpinning most journalism is bunkum. That said the course could have been tightened up to 3 years I thought.
Have the ideals of this course or others positively influenced journalism in Ireland over the past 10 years? I would say for the most part no. Why? My take is that the media is not a meritocracy and pandering to the interests of bosses and editors is more important in landing a job in this overcrowded marketplace than original thinking.
In my experience ‘out of sight, out of mind’ sums up the attitude of commissioning editors when it comes to freelances. I’ve seen very few instances in this industry where talent is actually nurtured.
I would also question the preponderence of these courses. There isn’t nearly enough jobs for graduates. Nearly all courses focus on national newspapers and broadcast media but the reality for most graduates is long stints on provincial papers or trade papers of the ‘Have I Got News For You’ guest publication variety. Many graduates end up pursuing other avenues.
I think an apprentice-style approach to learning journalism - ongoing practical placement combined with formal teaching - would be valuable in this industry.
On a related note, fee-paying Independent Colleges has a journalism course now, which I’m sure will in no way determine the make-up of staff in Independent Newspapers in years to come.
Comment by David Bowie | March 19, 2008 at 4:44 pm“To be honest”
See, if I was commissioning editor, you’d be blacklisted for this little irrelevance Adam. But the earnestness it conveys probably endears you to them in a way an irreverent streak never would.
“Plenty of my class are now working across national titles and in major roles on national radio, and turning out quality stuff, too.”
No doubt they are but how does their job security, income, career progression and prospects compare with other sectors?
Are we on the fast track or engaged in vanity publishing? Newspapers are all about their bottom line; journalists should follow suit. It’s a two-way street.
Comment by Macey | March 19, 2008 at 4:49 pmStill, at least they are currently turning out great headlines over at the Indo.
“Sligo man released after being held by pirates for over a month”
Comment by Ivor | March 19, 2008 at 5:05 pmRun Sinead as fast your legs can carry you. Keep your self-respect and your five grand.
Comment by Dee | March 19, 2008 at 9:23 pm>I always tell young people interested in journalism to prepare for a freelance career
Why would you encourage anyone to set their sights so low Shane? No one should be expected to work on that basis for more than a couple of months. It’s exploitation.
Any organisation that regards it as acceptable is dysfunctional. If that’s what lies ahead, I’m not surprised the majority verdict is steer clear.
Comment by Mel | March 19, 2008 at 11:16 pm@Macey: Thanks for the tip - I’ll be sure to refrain from submitting my blog comments to commissioning editors in future.
@David Bowie: Interesting suggestion on turning journalism into an apprenticeship - according to the obligatory veteran hack on my college course that’s the way it was when he started and he swore it was the best way to do things.
There’s no doubt that a course can only teach you so much and practical experience is better by far for someone looking to improve as a journalist.
Comment by Adam | March 19, 2008 at 11:23 pmI finished a course in a certain Institute two years ago which involved journalism and Public Relations. It was a post Graduate course. It cost me, well my parents over 5,000 euro’s. I can not stress strongly enough what a waste of time and money this year was. This courses are made out to sound glamorous and inviting with practically a guaranteed job! Ah, that certainly was not the case. I would advise anyone thinking of doing one of these Micky Mouse courses to seriously think about it. It will not guarantee a job for the Irish Times.
Comment by Gareth | March 20, 2008 at 3:13 amI did the BA in journalism in DCU. Most of my four years there were spent faffing around, but that’s my fault. We had a semester abroad and I went to Boston University and got more out of that than I did during most of my time in DCU. But they’ve cut the BA to three years now, and taken out that option to study abroad for a while which is stupid.
I think they might have made shorthand optional too. If you’re going to learn shorthand, they should teach it all the way through the course, not just cram it into one year. Then again, I’m not the best advertisement for this because I went to a couple of lectures, freaked out and then failed it twice, so…
While I did learn some techy things regarding broadcasting, most of the practical stuff I picked up was due to the fact that I was writing throughout college for free magazines, bits and bobs online etc. You can’t really teach that kind of practice.
If anyone was thinking of getting into journalism, I would recommend the BA or MA in journalism in DCU because the work placement at the end of the course offers a foot in the door.
Comment by UnaRocks | March 20, 2008 at 7:13 amI think there’s some merit in journalism courses (the legalities, shorthand) but I think anyone considering a journalism career is better off just getting out there and writing, and across as many areas as possible.
After my degree (English and History) I worked in RTE and did a journalism course at night in Ballyfermot. But by that stage, I was writing for a couple of websites and local papers anyway. I felt I learnt more from actually knuckling down to writing.
As Stellanova says, you can’t teach good writing, you can only point out pitfalls.
Shane, completely agree re getting another type of degree before heading into journalism. It gives you a broader knowledge and a different way of thinking when you later apply it to writing.
I did a secretarial course in my teens to learn how to type properly and was taught shorthand then, but have never used it on the job. Still have the Pitmanscript books so might dig them out.
With regard to the proliferation of courses, there simply isn’t enough print work out there to sustain the numbers pouring out of these courses every year. Many will have to diversify into other areas - not even TV or radio - but PR, advertising etc.
Comment by Sinéad | March 20, 2008 at 8:51 amMacey - anyone unprepared to deal with the lack of “job security, income, career progression and prospects” that goes hand in hand with a career in journalism shouldn’t be contemplating it as a career in the first place. That’s like a medicine graduate complaining about doing their intern year because it’s just too hard and they don’t want to bother.
The slog is the name of the game - it’s the reason why journalism is a rewarding and challenging career choice, and ties in with Shane’s point. If journalistic talent could be taught, the universities would be churning out graduates, and there’d be many thousands more unemployed journalists wandering around, unprepared to put in the graft it takes to get somewhere in the industry.
Granted, a foot in the door is how a lot of young journalists (myself included) get started - but I know a hell of a lot more who’ve made it through sheer perseverance and raw talent.
Comment by MC | March 20, 2008 at 9:40 amWhy would you encourage anyone to set their sights so low Shane? No one should be expected to work on that basis for more than a couple of months. It’s exploitation.
Actually, even though journalism in Ireland is much more badly paid than it is in, say, the UK, if you’re good at freelancing, you can make a lot of money and also keep your freedom. There are huge advantages to being freelance - but only if you are good at managing it. I’ve been both a staff writer and a freelancer, and I hated freelancing because I am not particularly good at being my own boss and felt really uncomfortable with the whole constant-harrassment-of-editors business. Freelancing means having to nag people for work and, in the cases of some publications, nag people for payment. I still managed to make a decent living for three years as a freelance features writer doing relatively high profile stuff.
A lot of my friends are freelancers (hell, I live with one), and those who are better at the managerial side are all doing very well and wouldn’t want to trade in the freedom and variety of their jobs for a staff position. Many of them have to turn down work regularly because they’re so in demand. Being freelance can be very tough but it can also work. As Shane says, it’s a sad reality that publications are not taking on staff people. Yes, the use of freelancers is often exploitative (the publications get the workers but none of the employer responsibility), and I think it’s something the NUJ will be addressing more and more, but as Shane says, this is reality and anyone starting out in journalism now simply has to be aware of it.
Comment by Stellanova | March 20, 2008 at 10:14 amAlso, Sinéad and Shane are right about the benefits of having another non-journalism degree. I did German and History of Art at Trinity before going straight to DCU (which was so near my familial abode I could walk to it every day, which made it even more depressing - I would gaze at my old bus stop opposite the Viscount and wish I was still going into town and civilisation rather than trudging down Collins Avenue to that horrible manky MA room and its two computers). Those four years of faffing around reading Kafka and looking at paintings did actually turn out to be pretty useful - more than the year in DCU, anyway. In fact, we had to do a course in media analysis in my second year of German - looking at the different ways in which papers of different political persuasions from the former east and west (it was only 1994, after all) covered the same stories - that was more relevant to working in the media than anything I learned at DCU.
And then I was writing for college papers (I was the co-arts editor of Trinity News for about five minutes). I did my very first interview when I was in second year, with Geoff Barrow from Portishead (Dummy had just come out) and I still remember the huge thrill I felt afterwards. I also remember idiotically transcribing every single thing he said before writing up the interview - productively going through interview tapes is another skill you can only learn by trial and error. In fact, interview skills weren’t even mentioned during my MA, despite the fact that every journalist is going to have to learn how to conduct and write up a decent interview at some stage.
Comment by Stellanova | March 20, 2008 at 10:31 amYou can’t compare medics’ internship with journos. One is finite and the other seems to have no end. Who said the slog is the name of the game anyway? It’s reasonable to have goals and expect to fulfil them within a timeframe.
Comment by Syl | March 20, 2008 at 12:00 pmOf course it is Syl, but to achieve those goals you usually have to do a lot of slogging.
And once you reach that goal and create a new one for yourself, a new slog begins.
Comment by Adam | March 20, 2008 at 1:54 pmHey, don’t take any notice of me Adam, was having one of those days
Comment by Macey | March 20, 2008 at 3:43 pmI work in newspapers and I believe that all them hack colleges churn out dreary technocrats, who did everything right. Got their leaving cert, got their degree, got their journalism MA or whatever. This process roots out the maverick who spent a year in bed or wandering the streets of Vladivostok. There should be no set procedure for becoming a hack. I think some geyser said you need “a rat-like cunning, a plausible manner, and a little literary ability”. A good spell-checker and a brass neck.
Comment by flippinheck | March 20, 2008 at 4:37 pmThanks to everyone for their comments, especially those with some experience of the courses. They’ve offered an insight that I do not have.
I just want to comment further on the point about freelancers. It is a fact of life that journalism has moved towards being a freelancer business. The Indo outsources its subbing, which would have sounded ridiculous a few years ago (actually, it sounds ridiculous now). It doesn’t mean that there are not long-term or permanent contracts out there, only that they are hard to find.
But it’s worth noting what has already been said here, which is that freelancing offers a lot of opportunities to do interesting work for a variety of places, in a variety of media. Some very very good journalists have flourished in that environment.
And finally, in response to Markham wondering what brought this on: nothing much. I’d wanted to mention it for a while.
Comment by Shane | March 20, 2008 at 8:37 pm@Macey - was just having a bit of back and forth - no offence intended or taken!
@flippinheck - Going back to my course’s obligatory veteran hack; he regularly made the point to us that having a journalism degree would take us no closer to being journalists and likewise not having a journalism degree is no impediment to becoming a journalist. I feel I took something away from college that was of benefit - the aforementioned technical details and legal basics but other than that he was dead right.
@Shane - there are plenty of hacks out there (Kathy Foley being a blogging example) who walked away from a contract to go freelance instead; I can see how it’s an appealing option if you know you have the experience and contacts to be able to guarantee (as much as you can) a regular and varied string of work. For example freelancing offers you the opportunity to pitch an idea around; being staff somewhere means you get one pitch and if it fails the idea goes back on the shelf.
Comment by Adam | March 21, 2008 at 12:38 amI didn’t get a chance to comment earlier, but some interesting points were raised.
I recently did a rough calculation that there might be about 3,000 people here graduating every year with some kind of a media/communications/journalism degree.
But are there even that number of journalists and PR people in the country?
Realistically very few are going to end up being journalists. I studied in the UK and I know that the majority of people who took my course are not working as journalists but in a range of other diverse fields.
The future of print journalism especially is becoming alot more uncertain. One lecturer in the UK recently asked his class of journalism students to put their hand up if they read a paper every day.
Very few did.
The number of staff jobs in journalism are decreasing every year, I would argue. This isn’t conducive to carving out a career in the traditional sense, which means people will have to adapt and learn new skills as they are demanded.
In comparison, you can start in PR on a reasonable salary and progress and increase your salary as you gain experience.
Generally, there is no money to be made in journalism.
As for shorthand, I started learning it but didn’t stick with it at uni. But you can survive without it.
Comment by john | March 21, 2008 at 12:56 amI think its pretty sad when people assume the only thing you can learn in college that will benefit you as a journalist is a few trade skills like shorthand and a basic smattering of legal knowledge. Does nobody think being introduced to a wide range of books and opinions might be useful for a career as, y’know, a writer?
“a rat-like cunning, a plausible manner, and a little literary ability” - all great attributes if the height of your ambition is to work for the Irish Sun.
Comment by David Bowie | March 21, 2008 at 11:30 amYou can’t teach journalism any more than you can teach creative writing.
Comment by JC Skinner | March 21, 2008 at 3:47 pmJust because colleges have spotted a cash-cow market doesn’t mean what they’re doing is either effective or good.
I’ve seen tons of young hacks come out of these courses and not last a week in a newsroom.
They limp off into PR or god knows what, having wasted one or two years of their life and a load of their parents’ money ‘training’ for something that they were never going to be good at.
And the ones that do stick? They were good anyway, and didn’t need a DCU masters to tell them that. What they needed was an opportunity is all.
Journalism is not lucrative, as the NUJ can tell you, nor glamorous, as anyone on a death knock can tell you.
It’s a calling, it’s inate and it can’t be taught.
JC Skinner: Your point about the unis using the demand for journalism/media courses as a cash cow is spot on.
Comment by john | March 21, 2008 at 4:31 pm“It’s a calling, it’s inate and it can’t be taught”
Mystical hogwash! If any body of professionals should be well-read and educated its those who produce the media.
However, I do agree most journalism courses, particularly the shorter ones, appear to be opportunistic and misleading. The essence of being successful in journalism is to be an expert on something. These courses tend to leave graduates as jacks of all trades but masters of none. Aspiring journalists may in fact be better off getting a qualification in history, economics, sociology etc and then picking up the practical skills like shorthand and typing somewhere.
Comment by David Bowie | March 21, 2008 at 5:01 pmDoing a journalism course is no guarantee of being well-read or educated.
Comment by JC Skinner | March 21, 2008 at 6:04 pmFurthermore, many journalists manage to be both without attending DCU or Griffith.
The aspects of journalism which make a journalist cannot be taught. They involve integrity, tenacity, thoroughness, curiosity, inter-personal skills, political nous and a raft of other attributes that no course can possibly teach.
That’s not mystical anything, least of all hogwash.
This is all great. Journalism has always been something I thought I’d eventually land up in, in some form or another. In school, though, I was told to do the a Journalism course if that’s what I wanted to do with my life. It never seemed quite right route. I’m speaking from a position of absolutely ignorance, therefore, but the courses appear at once too specfic and too vague. One is streamlined for a career, but not taught anything in any great depth.
I took Philosophy and French in Trinity, instead, with an aim to, maybe, taking the MA in DCU once I graduate.
That’s still a possibility, but less so. This thread has been more enlightening than any of those Transition Year books or those dreadful Career Guidance teachers.
As an aside, my Career Guidance teacher seemed to work for NUI Maynooth. Really, it was hilarious. She’d sit you down, take a look at your mock results, ask you what you want to do, and when you replied, “oh, French and Philosophy in Trinity, Miss,” she’d say, ” Iwouldn’t be so sure of that, I mean, I hear Maynooth has a very good Philosophy department.” Maynooth may very well have a wonderful Philosophy department, but we thought it strange that she would eulogize, to my friends, its History, English, Geography, Engineering and Science departments, too. Especially when one of my friend’s was set on going to NCAD. “Would you not prefer to do something else - like Geography? I hear Maynooth has a very good Geography department.”
End aside.
Out of interest, Shane, how did you find your way in to Journalism?
Comment by Kevin | March 21, 2008 at 6:15 pmSome of you guys are thinking the right way. It has become a shabby business. Talent counts for bugger all. Those with the smarts/ambition/personality leave.
Talk to your friends in the Irish Times if you want a measure of what the climate is like in there right now. Morale is at an all-time low, ’tis grim and grubby.
Don’t get sucked in by the so-called prestige of seeing your name in print.
The journalism courses - useless by all accounts - would not exist if employers didn’t demand them. Speaks volumes really.
Comment by Rich | March 21, 2008 at 9:05 pmKevin - I edited teh University Observer in UCD before getting my break by being a gofer in Magill when it was brought back to life in 1997. Went from there really, but included a wonky detour into music PR.
Comment by Shane | March 22, 2008 at 8:08 pmYou can’t learn journalism in isolation.
I agree with David Bowie that education is worthwhile in the sense of broadening the mind, but in that case you might as well just do a course that interested you.
However I think it’s quite common to expect college to transcend the dreariness of second level, and then feel cheated when it doesn’t.
It’s still formal education and still has those limitations.
Employers should be trying to train as well as recruit though. I feel like I’ve learned more in the last 2 weeks with an employer training me to work specifically for them, than in the entire 4 years of ifs and buts in college.
Comment by Ronan | March 23, 2008 at 12:52 pmWhatever about excellence in writing, I’d settle for Irish journalists with a basic knowledge of grammar, spelling and punctuation.
It would also help if they knew a little about the subjects they cover: to listen to the RTÉ reporters, you’d wonder if they ever heard of some of the people they refer to. Just yesterday, I heard Mary Wilson talking about someone called “Paul Bremner”.
It would be refreshing to think that these people read the odd book or two occasionally. It might help them to avoid reporting on the likes of the Bhuttos’ “Musoleum”
It would also be nice if Irish journalists noticed that two-thirds of Irish people don’t live in Dublin, and perhaps shaped their reports accordingly. Not all life exists in Dublin. It might seem a trivial example, but I’m a bit tired of the subliminal Dublin-centred message implied in phrases like “down in Limerick” and “over in Galway”.
Finally, but impossibly, it might be nice if more journalists had a basic grasp of things other than journalism, such as science and technology, law, politics and current affairs.
Comment by Bock the Robber | March 23, 2008 at 8:21 pmBock, journalists with a grasp of technology and science, law and politics? That said Liz Bonnin and Pat Kenny are both closet chemical head.
I remember when RTe had Frank Luntz on for the general election coverage last year, this after he had done those focus group programs, and he admitted he couldn’t understand our electoral system at all.
Comment by Dan Sullivan | March 24, 2008 at 6:29 pmGreat discussion. Why is it buried in the bowels?
Comment by Sara | March 24, 2008 at 7:32 pmBock - On the Dublin bias, I agree that it’s a problem, and would admit to suffering from it too.
Sara - I’m not sure how this is buried in the bowels. Of the blog? Or of Ireland.com?
Comment by Shane | March 25, 2008 at 8:59 amFor a classic example of the Donnybrook smug-bubble effect, listen back to Tubridy’s show this morning.
It concerned the sort of words used in “The City” versus those used in “The Country”.
Which city? D4.
Which country? The rest of Ireland.
It was the usual let’s-patronise-the-rest-of-Ireland item, where a young reporter went to Clonmel and asked some middle-aged women from Central Casting about Facebook.
Oh, those funny old boggers!
As I peep out my window right now, I’m looking at the typical rural spectacle of three office blocks and a hotel, but yet I live in “The Country”.
According to Tubridy’s researcher, nobody in “The Country” has heard of Facebook, or latte, which are exclusively terms used in “The City” by those sophisticated young Dubs.
He might have been better off asking why “The Country” has no broadband.
Alternatively, he might send his reporter to Finglas West and see how many people can tell him about poking on Facebook. Over a latte, of course.
How’s that for journalistic standards?
Comment by Bock the Robber | March 25, 2008 at 1:26 pmInteresting discussion… Particularly interesting, I would imagine, for folks considering a career in media/journo-hood.
For my sins, I’ve been a freelancer for a good few years and have witnessed a bit of everything in that time. In my experience, if you interact with commissioning editors in a polite and relatively honest manner, they will treat you well. For instance, I’m often a little late filing stuff but I don’t take the piss… From what I’ve heard over the years, the freelancers that editors really can’t stand are those that regularly f*** them over or who grossly overestimate their own significance.
In terms of money, I know of freelancers who make quite decent livings… Many others, including myself, probably do less work but enjoy the attendant freedom that this permits. As such, if financial security is your guiding concern, then freelance journalism can be lucrative, but is probably not for you…
A few final points: (1) Like a lot of working journalists, I came to the trade through a non-journo college background. The notion that you can teach people how to write is conceited if not a little ludicrous… Sure, grammar, syntax, and perhaps even style, can be acquired to some degree. But writing - without trying to endow it with transcendental properties - is a more bizarre act than the simple mastery of sentence construction. (It’s no small thing, for instance, that the past four decades have seen the vagaries of language emerge as the key area for philosophical analysis.) Anyway, at the very least, then, a good writer needs to think like a writer, to understand what discourse entails, and I would argue have a profound sense of self. (Which probably translates as ‘needs to be a little up their own hole’…). Whether being a good writer and being a good journalist are quite the same thing is another debate, but - without exception - the better journalists, whatever their field, are always primarily excellent writers.
(2) I’m not sure who mentioned the need to pander to editors, but I’d admit there’s a delicate balance between getting on with someone and opportunistically ‘keeping your oar in’ with them. If your dignity’s at stake, always say ‘f*** it’. (Likewise, I would say, irrespective of impending penury or your wanting to get a leg-up, never write about something you don’t want to… this way leads to much anguish, grasshopper). This all brings me, at last, to a broader issue where dignity really does come into play. A terror that looms over all journalism, of every shade, are the vested interest groups - read PR - that can exert a subtle (and, often, very unsubtle) influence over a journalist’s writing. Most arts/ents writing in this country, for example, is drab, unisnpiring, lifeless muck. Part of that is down to poor writers. A good part of it, however, is down to the cliques that converge in media/PR circles and the subsequent authorial restraint, self-censorship, and - yuck - “little favours” that emerge as a result.
In spite of such displeasures, it is possible to do your own thing, and journalism really can be very rewarding. Don’t take it too seriously. But at the same time take it serious enough that you don’t become a mouthpiece for the views/machinations of others. There is actually very little in terms of prestige in seeing your name in print. There is, however, nothing worse than seeing your name in print beside an article that you know is wan*ology of the highest order.
Comment by dove_from_above | March 25, 2008 at 2:51 pmI’m nearing the end of the two year HND in Media Production (Print Journalism) in Ballyfermot. Although there are some academic elements, it’s known for being more practical than some courses out there.
The largest benefit I’ll take away from it is the experience doing a once off magazine off our own backs last year and our mandatory newspaper this academic year. And having to fund these from advertising has given me extra respect for that side of the business.
On the subject of writing, the two years probably have - at least somewhat - refined my writing and thinking. Who, what, when, where, why, and how are almost burnt into my eyelids, while every second thing I see is now a possible story idea.
Been shown the basics of Quark and then getting to use it to produce a magazine and the newspapers was great, but out of 17 of the class, there’s only four or five who could use it to a practical degree.
Along the lines of what Adam said on shorthand – we had it in first year, but it was optional, and few did it.
I’d agree with Una and others who say there’s nothing like experience or practice, and even on that the course I’m doing is pretty helpful. We’ve have ‘news days’ where we’re sent out to events or the courts etc, and have to come back and write up articles. Feature writing classes and assignments are as practical as could be expected. In some of the more academic subjects such as business and politics, the lecturers left it open to write some or all assignments as magazine/newspaper articles. And then there’s our newspaper which is marked.
With the newspaper as with the rest, students take away as much as they put into it. It stretches from treating it just like an assignment to putting all you’ve got into, and everything in-between.
@ John & David Bowie: Out of the 17 in my class, on an educated guess I’d say about eight will be looking for jobs in newspapers, and around the same amount or less would read newspapers every day. Of those eight, six would be a mixture of mainly or exclusively interested in sport (but I think that’s high compared to the years before and after us). Most of the others would be already thinking of areas other than newspapers (the magazine sector, radio, PR etc).
@ JC Skinner: Can journalism be taught? Rather then simply saying no, I’d say like any other trade it’s not for everybody, but a course can teach much of what used to be learnt in in-house training. And on not lasting a week in a newsroom – there’s far more to journalism then newsrooms.
@ Bock the Robber: A basic grasp of law and politics is a part of journalism courses, but as with the leaving cert many get by without actually learning (in one ear out the other kind of stuff). I would hope most would come out of secondary school with a grasp of science. Not sure about the rest of the courses, but ours also covers the basics of both marketing (assignments are newspaper centred) and business in second year.
The lack of a basic grasp of technology down is a failing of our national and secondary school systems. But as has been said on the Student Journalism blog on pressgazette.co.uk recently, teaching students how to use the main parts of a content management system would be far more practical and more likely to benefit them in the real world the current practice of trying to teach HTML or Dreamweaver etc. Students could still get to grips with understanding code (as much as needed anyway) by process such as embedding video etc.
Anyway, sorry for the long comment… students obviously have too much time on their hands!
Comment by Cian | March 25, 2008 at 4:29 pm@ Bock the Robber: Tubridy isn’t a journalist. And if you think any of that is bad try moving to Dublin. Just because I come from Mayo many people seem to think it’s highly likely I grew up on a farm. In reality, if it was not for (non-farming) work, I would have rarely left the town I come from.
Also, on the topic of doing a non-journalism course: It’s not really an option for myself, the only way I got into Ballyfermot was as a mature student on the back of some bits and pieces written previously. Anyway, between a poor leaving cert and starting the HND I was doing a job that was a mixture of manual and part-skilled work, so I really don’t want to get sidetracked too much from journalism.
Comment by Cian | March 25, 2008 at 5:12 pmCian: Indeed. But unless people are just writing about journalism, they need to know about other things. Surely it can’t hurt to have a good general knowledge, the way people used to be back in the old days. Remember? When people read books because they wanted to, not because they had to.
Comment by Bock the Robber | March 25, 2008 at 5:43 pmAs I said, our course includes a basic grasp of politics, law, marketing, and business.
But I don’t think a “good general knowledge” is something you altogether can learn in college.
Comment by Cian | March 25, 2008 at 10:06 pmThat’s for certain.
I suppose it’s just that I sometimes despair at the things I hear on the radio and read in the paper.
Comment by Bock the Robber | March 25, 2008 at 11:20 pmMy take for what it’s worth: If you’re Joe or Josie average, journalism will suit you down to the ground. You can happily churn out copy for the Evening Herald and the like.
If, however, you are intelligent with your eye on a quality broadsheet, forget it. The market is too small and the climate too altered.
Comment by Lambe | March 26, 2008 at 12:42 amThis is a very interesting article/thread. As someone who is interested in writing (mostly on film; I did a Film Studies MA after my Arts degree) I am just beginning to dip my toe (only slightly mind you!) into the world of journalism. I would love to get an article published soon, whether it’s in an actual magazine or as part of an online publication. I have never considered doing a journalism course as I believe that anybody who works well throughout their Arts degree should leave college with a good understanding of the structure of writing not to mention good grammar, spelling and vocab. Heh I’m typing this so quickly now that I’ll probably look back at it and see spelling mistakes! But I do agree that when it comes to writing, like with any creative talent, you either have it or you don’t.
Comment by Gemma | March 26, 2008 at 8:25 pmOne of my ways of practising writing and at the same time adding something to my CV is by blogging. Thanks to systems such as Wordpress people can create interesting and original websites and they have an immediate example of their work for anybody willing to take a look.
interesting related piece here, albeit from a UK perspective: http://www.bjr.org.uk/data/2008/no1_bravo.htm
Comment by john | March 27, 2008 at 3:52 pmWith regard to the comment: ‘…in my experience, good journalists are often the ones who have had a different life other than journalism, who bring something unconventional to their writing, who learned their trade on the job, and by reading (and learning from) a lot of others writers.’ Unfortunately modern arsehole Ireland doesn’t even vaguely allow those without qualifications to take up positions even in the tiniest publishing house, without having a journalism qualification. In effect, the tendency for over qualifcation has created this monster. I came back to Dublin from London in 1995 with a BA in Writing & Publishing and a host of life and work experience from living away in the 1980s when Ireland couldn’t support me. Any job I applied for, asked if I had a postgrad. “Sorry, we’re only looking to take on someone with a journalism degree or a postgrad. in journalism.” It was because of this that I went and did the Pg.Dip in Journalism at DIT and it was absolutely appalling. It actually taught us NOTHING, not even the bare basics of a news story, and around half of us left so incensed that we became journalists despite ourselves. I am now doing an MA in Creative Writing and you see the same ‘theme’ emerge…I’ve listened to visiting publishers say “it helps when you send in a book proposal if you have a qualification in writing, such as the MA you’re doing here” and so on. GONE are the days of starting off in the Irish Times post room as an errand boy and ending up as Political Editor with a house in Killiney and a great career story under your belt. There’s an over saturation of these courses because there’s demand for them, simple as that. Of course it doesn’t produce better writers, or improve the standard of journalism per so… why would it when freelance rates are so dire and wages now so low in Ireland for any journalist starting off, that you end up writing 7 or more articles a week to earn a living with no time to worry about standards. At one stage I was writing 12 articles per week for business supplements to pay for a huge mortgage on a tiny 1-bed flat next to a methadone clinic in North Dublin. Welcome to the Real World. Standards need not apply. June Caldwell…
Comment by June Caldwell | April 4, 2008 at 4:03 pmA couple of points to make on this:
Firstly - Rather an over-concentration on the ‘national’ media here. May I point out, as someone working in the regional press, that the sector is growing all the time. With no formal training, relatively little experience and less than a year in the job I have received three other job offers from regional media. The point Bock made about the ‘national’ media is correct. The ‘national’ media is not national, it’s written and read by Dubliners. Most people I know (in ‘the country’ - a city) only read local newspapers, and never buy a national paper. Granted, most regional papers are not terribly exciting places to work. However, Dublin is not necessarily at the top of the career ladder, and all the students being churned out of journalism courses need to realise that. Who’d want to commute four hours from a shed in Meath to work in the national press, when the sector is as insecure as it is?
Secondly - I completely agree with everyone who said training does not a journalist make. I have learned more on the job than any of my ‘trained’ colleagues. Being interested, actually reading other newspapers, putting in some of your own time to get informed, making contacts, and knowing what you’re talking about are all far more valuable than a piece of paper that says you’re a journalist. From a technical point of view, sure, training would be helpful, but anyone with half a brain will learn through practice, if they’re given the chance.
Comment by Celtic Donkey | April 16, 2008 at 8:16 pmOn teaching - I’ve just finished teaching two modules of a part time Diploma in journalism. One on sub editing and another entitled freelance and feature writing. Now I know it isn’t the equivalent of DCU or DIT (because I’ve done the MA in Journalism in DCU) but I did find that you cannot teach people to write. You can show them that they need to learn, but you can’t teach them to write, particularly since many don’t even read. Talented people will succeed even if you are a rubbish teacher and those less talented will pretty much stay at the level you found them at no matter how good you are.
If someone can write you can teach them the mechanics of news reporting, and the basic structure of a feature, if they have an interest you can show them the difference between a topic and an angle.
All in all, I’m of the view that the courses can be useful in turning capable people into capable journalists, but there are also dreadful journalists coming out of them. Way too reliant on PR and the fifth estate for stories, trained to churn out press releases with headlines slapped on them. Just highly trained regurgiators. And if the courses are doing that, then it is because the industry wants them.
Between the stories that shouldn’t make print and do, and the stories that should and don’t, It’s hard to recommend this career. I wrote more on the teaching experience here: http://www.eoinbassett.com/blog/
June - I totally agree that without a qualification these days, work is very hard to come by. Also, freelance rates are appalling… a total joke in some cases and they mean that freelancers end up doing the minimum required to produce the story, how much does a freelancer get paid for an article for which they chased down 11 interviews and spent a week researching? Usually the same as if they get some quotes and bang it all together with some wiki facts.
Celtic Donkey - It was probably just a romantic notion, but I wanted to work on a regional and get out of Dublin. I imagined you would have a closer relationship with the readership, and I would rather report on a ‘real’ story however local it is, than churn out some of the rubbish you see in the nationals.
But we’ve started getting most of the regionals in the office every week, and I get the feeling that many of them are as understaffed as the nationals, and some are really badly subbed.
Comment by Eoin | April 24, 2008 at 6:58 pmI come late to this interesting conversation, and would like to go back to Shane’s first question: ‘with so many graduates being pumped out of so many courses, has the standard of journalism improved?’
Disclaimer: I am employed by Dublin City University to teach journalism at BA and MA level. I worked for many years on the staff of RTE and the staff of the BBC, and I have freelanced for The Observer and other papers. Naturally, the views here are my own, not those of DCU or my colleagues.
Detour: I agree with flippinheck that there is no set procedure for entry to journalism in Ireland, and long may it be so. You can come straight out of school or after a career doing something else, with a journalism diploma or without. You do not need a licence to be a journalist, but all routes have this in common: luck. You must be lucky to have the talent and determination, lucky to know the right person, lucky to get a good story, or lucky to get to university. Take your pick. Curiously, much depends on a degree of wealth, especially the university part.
Can you learn to be a journalist? Of course. For some it is in from an old-timer at the next desk, for others it is in the lecture hall. And the best and brightest are still learning after 20 years. (Maybe that’s why so many graduates say ‘I learned more in the first four weeks of work, &c.’)
What about writing? I doubt if that skill is entirely innate, but even if it is, everyone has to learn how to write news for a paper or magazine, how to write for radio or TV. News, sport and features each have their own quasi-dialects. Each outlet uses formula not taught in school, and they must be taught somewhere, whether classroom or newsroom.
And there’s the rub; few employers now have any formal training at all. To my knowledge RTE is an exception (but it is mostly conversion training for non-broadcast journos), and I believe TCH have a trainee scheme at the Examiner. The new Independent College doesn’t actually promise a job with INM.
So where to learn house-style, the law of libel, a commitment to accuracy, how to talk to a grieving widow? The relentless pursuit of profit and efficiency means that almost no working journalist has even 15 spare minutes a day to mentor a junior recruit, so the apprenticeships of old have disappeared. Which leaves us with the colleges, some of which actually do a good job, good enough for editors up and down the country.
Return to nub: ‘has the standard of journalism improved’. My answer, is fourfold: a) yes, b) no, c) we’ll never really know, and d) anyway it’s not the colleges’ fault.
a) Yes, the standard has improved. The picture of our society available to the public today is incomparably more accurate than in the days of gulag orphanages and unchallenged authority. This is partly, but not wholly, due to the work of reporters and editors, some, but not all, of whom have journalism degrees.
b) No, the standard is worse. The narrowness of the news agenda, the preoccupation of some publications with the private lives of private people is obscene. This is partly, but not wholly, &c., as above.
c) Of course, we’ll never really know how much better or worse things might have been in the absence of the college degrees: which employers would pay for basic training, if they could avoid it? When the apprenticeship system collapsed under the pressure of productivity, how much worse might standards have been in the absence of third level journalism courses? It isn’t good enough to say learning on the job ‘was good enough for me’ (which it was, incidentally, I graduated in economics and politics), there simply isn’t the money, time or space for widespread basic on-the-job training anymore.
d) Last answer of the four - whatever media standards we have are not the colleges’ fault (or credit). All we can do in 12 months or 4 years, is turn out graduates who know how to recognise a story, how to write or edit it well, and have at least thought about political power and liberty, free speech and the right to privacy. What happens next is up to the editors and the owners. The best employers encourage graduates to do what they have learned. The worst tell them to act as if the only thing that matters is sales revenue.
So let’s get things in proportion. We don’t blame the medical schools for a Shipman, or the law schools for rogue lawyers. Most students do well in our courses, others don’t see the point.
Finally, returning briefly to a common theme in this discussion, I’d say this to anyone thinking of a career: if you are thinking about journalism mainly for big money or fame, it’s probably not for you, because most journos don’t achieve that. Nowadays even a staff job is hard to come by. I think the point of journalism is variety, and the satisfaction of an important job done well. A journalism degree is only one route of several. If you do choose college, like everything else, get informed about what the different institutions offer, and choose well.
Comment by Patrick Kinsella | May 7, 2008 at 4:24 pmI had intended to do an MA in journalism in the University of Ulster, Coleraine in September, but this thread has certainly put doubt in my mind. I have a Degree in English and Media and have taught for a year and worked in politics for a year.
I write press releases on a weekly basis for publications, both locally and nationally. I’ve always wanted to be a journalist, but I have been side-tracked many times.
I was hoping that this course would be the platform for a career as a journalist, but after examining this thread, one would have to wonder!
I am giving up a very well paid job to do this course, so that I can hopefully get my foot into a national paper. I’d like to thank each and every one of you for scaring the s**t out of me!!!
Comment by Batman | May 13, 2008 at 12:12 amI’m actually awaiting interview for both DCU and DIT. I’ve been working as a freelance journalist while doing my undergraduate degree. While I’ve found this thread very interesting, it hasn’t quenched my desire at all to go to DCU. I know that I respond well to structure and that the work placement will help set me on the right track.
There are many ways to get into journalism and I think various things work differently for different people. But at the core of it, you need talent and drive. You’ve got to believe that you have the above, which I do but I also want an MA. C’est la vie.
Comment by laloula | May 18, 2008 at 9:48 pmThank You!
I stumbled on this thread while i was wandering around browsing university courses. i have to say, i have learnt more in the past ten minutes from reading this webpage than i have in weeks of trawling numerous university websites.
The cynical part of me agrees wholeheartedly with these ‘journalist/media’ degrees and MA’s being cash cows. Upon completing a degree in psychology (arts), i am about as qualified as my dog to provide counselling or psychological advice. Granted I don’t regret my time in Maynooth or my degree choice (in which i did not do geography
) the path of the psychologist is similar to that of the journalist - no set path where only the strong, talented and determined survive. Recently I have been considering a written profession (whether journalism or publishing etc.) as my future career and this blog has both, opened my eyes to the flaws of journalism which the glossy university website don’t speak of and perhaps saved my savings from being thrown away on a needless course
Comment by epona | July 21, 2008 at 7:42 pmThis is a very interesting discussion. I am just wondering if anybody knows what the MA course in Coleraine is like? It appears to have an excellent reputation but I don’t personally know anyone who has done it. Also, what is the best approach to take to gain work experience in journalism and would editiors even bother to read articles submitted to them by someone without a journalism degree? I have a degree in English and History ,a h dip for teaching and a masters. Good luck to all in whatever field you choose to pursue!
Comment by dee | August 10, 2008 at 12:45 pm