What would Jesus do (take a scrum or line-out?)
At least one school had a Mass ahead of its Leinster Senior Cup rugby match this week.
It’s interesting to hear that God takes time out from his busy schedule - deciding who lives and dies, triggering natural disasters, fiddling the Republican nomination race - to pay an interest in schools rugby. Maybe he went to a school for fee-paying dieties. Maybe he has a couple of quid on the outcome. Whatever, other schools will now need to up the ante in order to curry his favour. Ritual sacrifice before the match, perhaps.
Seriously, I’m amazed that anyone would think that any God would bother influencing a minor sporting event on this sprawling planet. With the Olympics coming up, he’ll be far too busy trying to decide which God-bothering sprinter should win the 100m.
In the interests of inclusiveness, would you have made a similar comment about Muslim cricket players saying their prayers? Or is it just Christians who deserve derision?
Comment by Ian | January 29, 2008 at 9:19 amIan - It is equally ludicrous across all faiths. You’re a cleric, I’m interested to know your opinion on this practice of praying to God before a match or a race. In the US, football teams get down on one knee and pray before games. But even if we were to believe that God is interested in fixing sporting events, if all teams are doing it, when do prayers cancel each other out?
Comment by Shane | January 29, 2008 at 9:31 amShane, I’m not a religious man either but I don’t think it’s right to mock those that may get some benefit out of going to Mass.
While I’m sure that many of the team were kicking their heels waiting for their ‘ordeal’ to end, there must have been others who found benefit in the 45 minutes relative silence.
Have you considered that, as opposed to asking God to help that drop goal between the posts, the players might have used the half an hour or so to quietly mentally prepare themselves for the challenge ahead?
There are numerous sports stars (Jason Robinson, Muhammed Ali, Va’aiga Tuigamala, Tom Lehman, Jonathan Edwards…..) for whom their faith is a vital part in preparing themselves for whatever contest. If that’s what floats their boat, may they knock themselves out.
It’s surely not our place to point and laugh from the comfort of our sofa, however ridiculous it may seem to us.
By the way, did they win?
Comment by Brock Landers | January 29, 2008 at 9:34 amShane - Thanks for the clarification, I’m glad we all get equal treatment!
I would no more pray for one team’s sporting success (and supporting Chelsea from 1970, I had plenty of cause to!), than I would pray for a party to win an election or for a country to win a war. I would not have a problem, however, in praying for integrity, honesty and charity - at whatever level.
I am worried that what happens amongst certain groups is taken to typify Christianity in the US, and in the wider world. As well as cringey stuff, there is lots of good stuff - even for secular liberals
Off to do some prayers.
Comment by Ian | January 29, 2008 at 9:49 amBrock - I think it’s absolutely fair to point out the daftness of a school bringing its pupils into a religious ceremony immediately before a big match. Of course faith has been usdeful for sportsmen, as have a variety of other psychological techniques are for others. I’m sure it’s made no difference to countless others. And in a sport like rugby, I’m guessing that there may be prayers to ward off injury. But my point is about the silliness of God being asked from several quarters to follow teams or people into a sporting arena. Why shouldn’t I point this out?
Ian - Thanks for that. What fuels my complaint, to an extent, is the way in which some schools instill such a competitive edge in young men that it is -arguably - poisoning them. A lot of teenagers are turning to supplements to bulk up, they find that the rugby absolutely makes or breaks their time at school. It means that those more noble aims, of charity, integrity and honesty that you mention are endangered in that process.
Comment by Shane | January 29, 2008 at 9:49 amShane- I agree that obligatory attendance at mass shouldn’t have been a feature of the match day routine. If the Jason Robinson of the team wanted to go and pray, good luck to him. If the Richard Dawkins of the team would prefer to annoy himself by reading horoscopes, more power to him.
In also find the ostentatious religious praising of many American sportsmen and the Brazilian footballers to be cringeworthy.
My point is that some sportstars have superstitious routines that they think may effect the way they play, or the game’s outcome. Patently this is ridiculous. The same could be said about asking God to guide them.
However, I have never played sport to a serious level, maybe you have. Therefore, who am I to tell someone that their preparations are silly?
So, can we agree that how a sportsman prepares himself is his business and that it shouldn’t be forced on his team mates? Nor should it be sneered at by hurlers on the ditch for that matter.
Comment by Brock Landers | January 29, 2008 at 10:13 amShane, your out of line here, either through ignorance or simple misunderstanding.
I assure you that teams involved in the Senior Cup and indeed other sporting events do not pray simply for a win. These guys have invested months of time and effort into a collective goal. From personal experience I can tell you that the Mass acts as a quiet time during a day when these lads put themselves under immense pressure to do justice to all the work they have put in. My team had a Mass in the same chapel at the same time with the same priest before each game. God cannot assure victory for anyone, however he can make us feel like we are in a position to perform to the best of our ability.
On a recent visit to the Camp Nou in Barcelona, I visited the chapel in the tunnel pitchside that is open to both sets of players on opposing teams. This chapel was blessed by Pope John Paul II in the 1980’s!
It appears from your comments that you have a chip on your shoulder about religious fee-paying schools in Ireland or the media coverage afforded to the schools cup in your paper or both. This resentment is thinly veiled but there nonetheless.
Comment by Hugh | January 29, 2008 at 10:40 amHugh - Thanks for the comment, and I appreciate your honesty. But I can’t help but feel that - having put young men under such unwarranted pressure in the first place - to throw in a Mass at the end appears somewhat hollow. I wouldn’t blame the pupils for this, as it’s a competition and structure run by adults.
Comment by Shane | January 29, 2008 at 10:57 amShane, perhaps you should have chosen to criticise the ridiculous “cheerleading” rallies these schools have instead.
Comment by Ronan | January 29, 2008 at 11:06 amShane, as I say, I can only speak from personal experience. I attended a Catholic boarding school, where we attended mass each Sunday as a school. Mass was not a throw-away afterthought used to fill time before something more important.
This is not an argument about the Leinster Branch, School administrators or dictatorship like training regiemes. I think your comments reveal a lack of respect for these students and their extra-cirricular activity, whatever that may entail.
Who says the pressure is unwarranted? I loved every second of it! Because of rugby I am a better communicator, decision-maker and I know how to live a life that sometimes needs discipline and sacrifice to succeed, not by winning a competition, but by fullfilling one’s potential. How can one be critical of 17 year olds having the opportunity to discover they have these qualities?
Comment by Hugh | January 29, 2008 at 11:41 am“How can one be critical of 17 year olds having the opportunity to discover they have these qualities?”
Hugh, there are plenty of beneficial effects from schools rugby, such as the ones you mentioned but I don’t think that is under debate. But the same system does produce some negative effects, particularly the fee-paying schools, primarily when it is taken too seriously. They express themselves in the kids making themselves ill with dangerous supplements, and the kind of aggressive pack mentality that spills out onto into their lives and those of others. I for one have personal reasons to fear rugby kids out drinking than gangs from less illustrious parts of the city. Without sounding dramatic, they are a danger and it’s hard to see that their aggressive behaviour is not courted by the intensive pressures put on them by this sport.
As for the God element, I look forward to the day where it has no place in any school, starting with the ones that receive public money.
Comment by Steve K | January 29, 2008 at 12:21 pmHey Steve, does that mean you look forward to the day our constitution is reformed and all reference to religion is removed? How about a re-write of the proclamation. What about religion being compulsory in a state exam, the Junior Cert?
You want God to butt out of schools then he should butt out of everything else that relates to our nation state.
Comment by Hugh | January 29, 2008 at 12:55 pmI think the important point missing from this debate is why God has allowed bloody Leinster schools egg-chasing to warrant annual supplements and front page photos in the Times?
It’s the fourth-by-some-distance participation sport in the country for Jesus’ sake - where’s the equivalent far the vastly larger schools football and gaelic games competitions?
Nothing to do with the concentration of wealth among the alumni of the Leinster rugger schools, I’m sure.
Comment by dealga | January 29, 2008 at 1:04 pm“You want God to butt out of schools then he should butt out of everything else that relates to our nation state.”
Comment by Brock Landers | January 29, 2008 at 1:22 pmWhy would this be a bad thing? Religion should be a personal lifestyle choice and should be held apart from the ‘real’ world.
Dealga - Everything to do with that, I’m sure. And the fact that they are our core readership. But I do have concerns about us feeding into a hype which adds to the pressure which ultimately leads to more worrying problems within the sport.
Comment by Shane | January 29, 2008 at 1:30 pmMore important things gents…
The photo…Top class!
Comment by Daddy Dec | January 29, 2008 at 1:54 pmDaddy Dec - Yes, I should credit Eric Luke for that.
Comment by Shane | January 29, 2008 at 1:55 pmHugh, yes that’s what I would like.
Comment by Steve K | January 29, 2008 at 2:01 pmWhatever about the merits of praying before, after or during sporting activities, could I ask for a moratorium on the phrase “God-botherer”? As a theist I find it extremely offensive. There is a sneering derision in the term which in other contexts would be sufficient to have a word excluded from decent liberal discussion. Can you tell me why such an (intentionally) belittling word is acceptable to describe people on the basis of their religious convictions, but similar terms are (rightly) disapproved of in relation to race, gender or sexual orientation? If you have a problem with religion Shane, fair enough. But surely you are articulate enough to get your point across without undue offense. Or is that the point?
Comment by Paul | January 29, 2008 at 4:17 pmPersonally I restrict my use of the term “god-botherer” to pious, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, preachy types, of which I find there are plenty, including within my own family. The term does nicely for them, I think.
Comment by Neill | January 29, 2008 at 5:17 pmTo hell with the annual supplements and front page photos in the Times, why does God allow tax payers money to be spent on private schools when our public schools have some of the largest class sizes in Europe. I really couldnt give a damn about schools rugby, but the fact that the state is paying for the education (and the amazing facilities) of the very wealthy, while at the same time is unable, or is unwilling to provide basic facilities for everyone else is a disgrace. God, rugby, religion, screw all that, the wealthy can pray and play as they like, but we shouldnt be paying for them to do it when we cant even provide for the people who actually need it, i.e. not the kids in private schools in D4.
Comment by Enda | January 29, 2008 at 6:03 pmKeep up the cheap shot lads
Comment by Hugh | January 29, 2008 at 6:40 pmShane, The comment pages in the “Irish Times” would seem to reflect a very different ethos than the sports and other sections. Are they aware of the schizophrenic nature of it?
Ian
Comment by Ian | January 29, 2008 at 6:51 pm- who lives in an unreal world
You’re wrong, wrong, wrong dude. Wrong.
Our school never even splashed a bit of holy water on the jerseys before games and we always lost.
I know realise that we were forsaken having forsook!
Wrath and vengence. I get it now.
Now where’s me stones, I just spotted some adultery out the window.
Comment by JD | January 29, 2008 at 7:06 pmIs Mass the reason that, St. Andrews last year aside, the Prod schools never come close to winning the thing?
Comment by Ian | January 30, 2008 at 10:17 amOf course God has an interest in School’s Rugby.
His senior council on earth are Jesuits, just like Blackrock College.
Comment by markg | January 30, 2008 at 10:30 amFor the record, Blackrock College is not Jesuit.
Comment by Ian | January 30, 2008 at 1:54 pmThe equally succesful Clongowes then.
Comment by markg | January 30, 2008 at 2:39 pmI went to a Jesuit school and they were relatively shit at rugby, so your theory doesn’t hold Mark.
Comment by Ronan | January 30, 2008 at 3:16 pmdo you know what, for a society that’s supposed to be class-less (or at least not as bothered with it as our British cousins across the water), if you scratch the surface of this country, it never appears to be too far away..
Comment by ciaran | January 30, 2008 at 10:06 pmhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=511632&in_page_id=1770
Comment by europhile | February 3, 2008 at 12:12 pm